This is a containment thread for foam discussion of new non-QR heavy rail in urban Brisbane, along the lines of a true Sydney-style metro.
Ideation can lead to advocacy down the track, but as we’ve agreed, it’s not a priority for 2025.
I can identify two broad corridors of the city which would be suitable for this.
Darra - Mt Ommaney - Indro - UQ - South Bank - City - Valley & Newstead - Bulimba - Hamilton - DFO
Browns Plains - Sunnybank - Upper Mt Gravatt - Logan Rd - City & Spring Hill - Exhibition - Gympie Rd
The first line is a variant extension of a corridor previously identified by the Qld Govt. The second line is a variant of what Metro has previously described as the “South East Subway” or the “North South Subway”.
Not so much on the topic of routes but on design. In Australia we tend to add cost by over engineering, I would advocate for what might be termed medium capacity metro in some places. Smaller trains and stations with fully automated high frequency service.
Models for this kind of system include Skytrain in Vancouver (bombardier system originally, Copenhagen metro (hitachi rail technology), the Astram line in Hiroshima really impressed me (Mitsubishi built) and a bunch of new lines being built in Seoul (silim line, ui line, seobu line, and 3 or 4 others with Korean companies tech).
The smaller station builds is a major cost saving and as long as you don’t have a hyper dense city (say over 15,000 people per km2) which we don’t have and probably never will these lines can move more than enough people.
In most of these cases a train can hold 300 to 600 passengers at much shorter lengths than a full 8-12 car metro and run at frequencies up to 90 seconds apart. I know on one of the Korean lines they actually needed to decrease frequency because older passengers were not able to get on and off the trains quickly enough for the system to reach max frequencies.
As someone who’s lived in Vancouver before, I can’t stress enough how amazing the SkyTrain is.
The frequency and speed is remarkable. Such an easy way to get around the city.
The portions of elevated rail aren’t always the prettiest, but there are ample examples around the world where the integration is done more gracefully than Vancouver’s.
Plus, I love how the city has had continuous Skytrain expansion since the Millenium line extension along Broadway started in 2019. That extension isn’t even completed and works on Expo line extension to Langley has already started, with plans for the next extension of the Millenium to UBC to start afterwards.
No downtime, just carrying on from extension to extension!
The skytrain in Vancouver is one of the oldest of these systems using fully automated small trains and it has certainly stood the test of time. The growing popularity of this model in Asia and Europe in particular means it’s no longer a new or novel idea but seems to be totally ignored in Australia despite probably being more appropriate than massive Metro lines required in Larger and denser cities.
A really smart part of the Vancouver expansions is that the lines will follow and replace the busiest bus corridors.
I think that’s exactly the broad concept of what is needed long term. A few extra stops can be added on each line if we genuinely want it to operate more like a metro than a suburban rail line but the broad sweeps are right.
On the east/west line there are high density communities with plans for increased density so they of course would need to be designed as fully transit oriented with around 1 KM radius of the stations. On the North/South line some stations could be designed with the Helsinki Metro approach of carefully designed bus/train interchanges given the more suburban nature of the route. Though of course all stations including existing suburban stations should be zoned for increased density.
The north/south line is pretty close to the Metro M1 line if you added a branch south from Mt Gravatt down Mains road then Beaudesert road.
The East/West line seems like the obvious missing link for Brisbane.
DFO to Bulimba seems like it could be elevated rail, but I imagine from then on to Indro it would have to be below ground, which would be extraordinarily expensive?
ADDIT:
Another model to consider is Montreal’s REM.
The majority of the network is a conversion of an existing commuter train line to automated metro, albeit for 6 car carriages. This line was mostly built at ground level, but a few elevated portions were built to remove level crossings. They also added two brand new segments, both of which are principally elevated rail, with a section running along the median of a highway. Oh and a short tunneled airport brach!
Overall it will have added 67km (just under half being the conversion, the rest being new) of automated metro for under 10billion CAD.
Are there any train lines in Brisbane that could be converted to automated metro as a part of creating a new line?
The idea I had for a TRUE metro line would be something like this:
Start either from Boggo Road or UQ Lakes, then Chancellors Place, then heads to Toowong station. You could add a station in between for local residents. From Toowong, it would turn and head in a straight line more or less to Albert St Station. Station somewhere near Aldi/Woolworths on Montague Road, then another at Mollison St, another near South Brisbane/Cultural Centre then Albert St.
From there it would head towards the valley, with a station somewhere near Eagle St & Wharf St, then a connection with heavy rail at Fortitude Valley. The station could be nearby e.g. under the Brunswick St Mall but within easy distance and possibly with dedicated walkways/subways. From there, another station somewhere in the northern end of the Valley. Broadly between the Emporium and the Gasworks shopping centre. Then it would dive under the river with a station at Bulimba in the vicinity of Oxford St. From there it would serve the redevelopment of the Naval base and then under the river to service Northshore Hamilton.
After there, I thought it could take over the Doomben line, coming above ground on the northern side of Kingsford Smith Drive. The Doomben line would be duplicated. I’m not sure about getting rid of the Nudgee Rd crossing but I had thought that Hendra station could be relocated underground. Eagle Junction would have an addition platform set back towards Clayfield. I would still maintain a track connection with the heavy rail.
The trains would be in two car lots. Initially I was thinking a Driving car and a trailer, perhaps supplemented with pairs of Non-driving motors and trailers. Your basic train would be 4 or 6 cars. Growth could be achieved by providing more pairs of NDM & Trailers. It would be QR compatible (25kV AC overhead and 1067mm narrow gauge). Trains would be ATO athough outside of the tunnel, I would prefer a driver in the cab. (my ideal would be a person in the cab all the time). Carriages would be shorter (around 18-20m) and platforms would be built for growth (around 8 - 10 cars long).
I like some of the other ideas. A line to DFO and to the western suburbs have merit and could be incorporated as branches on my idea.
Yep! The Line 4 in this proposal is almost exactly perfect for Brisbane’s first Subway line (I use Subway because the word Metro is now ruined in Brisbane thanks to BCC).
Perhaps our campaigns/advocacy should be built around this map in a more obvious way. Choosing a line or tow at a time, creating other associated images and press releases to drive discussion on what we already know will work.
In my opinion, there has to be a station in kangaroo point, the river separates the suburb from 3 of the most public transport oriented suburbs in southeast Queensland but public transport is so lacking compared to what I think it should be.
Additional stations at St Lucia, Windsor (Ferny Grove rail interchange) and Greenslopes.
Changing Stones Corner station to Buranda for connectivity with rail and SEB.
Some way for line to connect from Hamilton Northshore to rail network on the Northside. Either run to Doomben line and convert to metro with interchange at Eagle Junction, or run to DFO with a station in the Doomben area, and follow the Airtrain alignment to terminate at Toombul. With a potential TOD developing there it could be a chance to really develop that area and provide real connectivity.
In an ideal world if that second option happened then a rail station at DFO would also be good to allow connection to the airport. If there was an interchange there I would also be ok with terminating the metro line there as that is a connection to the Northside rail network.
If the metro line ran to Browns Plains then a rapid bus connection to Flagstone could also be an option.
Why do I feel like that one of the creeks could be a good alignment for a metro train line?
For example, a metro train line will be mostly aligned with Downfall Creek, travelling from Virginia to Ferny Grove, going through Geebung South, Chermside, Chermside West, Everton Park, and Everton Hills.
