This thread is for the discussion of introducing long-distance Translink (subsidised) services between Toowoomba and Brisbane. This includes both trains and long-distance bus services.
Current concepts and discussions have focused exclusively on the rail mode for connecting Toowoomba and Brisbane. Improving the existing commercial coach service by bringing it into the Translink network (and charging standard Translink fares) plus adding more services and co-ordinated timetabling and ticketing seems to have been overlooked.
However, by improving coach travel between Toowoomba and Brisbane, these improvements could be realised and delivered much more rapidly than rail (e.g. within 1-2 years versus many decades for rail) and for a fraction of the cost (bus improvements do not rely on track and/or electrification improvements).
Am improved bus service between Toowoomba and Brisbane is also likely to be the same or better overall journey time than for a train.
Estimation of Toowoomba - Brisbane Rail Patronage Under a Set of Assumptions
Using a test value of PT=1% and a value of 175,000 for populationâŚ
(175,000/100) x 2 trips/day x 5 days/week x 52 weeks = 0.91 million pax/year.
This assumes 1750 daily boardings (e.g. towards Ipswich/Brisbane) at Toowoomba station.
The value of 0.91 million pax/year is close to the value obtained by TMR in the Toowoomba to Brisbane passenger rail case, which put patronage at around 1.04 million passengers/year.
One concern I would have with Translink operating coaches to Toowoomba is any booking system. AIUI, coaches to Toowoomba are currently booked, and donât take standees. Coaches are all fitted with seatbelts.
I am unsure if this is a legal requirement, however given the nature of the Toowoomba range, I wouldnât like to see anything done to reduce safety for passengers.
What happens if a passenger turns up to a coach already full? Must they wait 60-90 minutes for the next one? What if itâs the last of the day?
Iâm aware thereâs at least one existing route in the Translink system (142) that doesnât take standees, however it does have (slower) alternatives nearby (141) if intending passengers are unable to board due to a full bus.
NSW train link buses are coach style. They have been running up to Bne because of the closure and upgrade of the interstate terminal at Roma Street.
Saying that I think that the Qld Governmentâs priority is not going into the business of running more buses, when they have Murrayâs and Greyhound doing a reasonable job until the electrified train line is in place.
This speaks to fare product design and timetabling co-ordination.
How could we solve this? Coach passengers already pay distance-based fares on coaches, so charging a different fare for a service that continues outside the Translink zone should be possible. It might require booking system tweaks.
Similarly, you could imagine reserving sections of the coach for bookings of a certain type or class. You might set aside x amount of seats for long-distance passengers, and another set of seats for short-distance passengers. This can be enforced by the booking system (preferably this system is set up on the TL website to be seamless so they donât have to switch websites).
The same process as for a full Translink bus, full train or a full ferry will apply. It is unlikely that the last service will be full because (a) monitoring of patronage over time will avoid this giving time for Translink to add more service and (b) services at the end of the day tend to be lightly patronised.
The big picture is:
There is no standard long distance PT between Brisbane and Toowoomba (PT as defined by being a Translink service charging standard Translink fares). If this were VIC, NSW or WA, it would be connected so.
Fare wise, Toowoomba is being treated very differently to other cities and towns at comparable distance to Brisbane (~ 10x the cost)
Focusing on the rail mode only has meant TMR has not recognised there is a solution to provide improved PT now at a fraction of the cost of delivering heavy infrastructure rail works with an indefinite delivery date and uncertain/unconfirmed funding.
Long distance subsidised coaches are a standard part of the public transport network in NSW, WA and Victoria. And they should be so here as well.
As a resident of the Southern Downs, I feel the fact there is effectively no Translink networked option to get up/down the range to connect to greater Brisbane is a failure of public policy and to the people of Toowoomba (and beyond).
The heavy rail line is hamstrung by two segments of track with slow speeds, with the main range being the primary limiter (almost 2 hours from Toowoomba to Helidon) and the Little Liverpool Range between Grandchester and Laidley (average speed ~30kph over an 8-10km section), with little prospect of these being removed in the absence of the Inland Rail project in the late 2030s or beyond, if ever.
To simply stick to the line that itâs ok to do nothing and not consider alternative modes for regional/intercity services essentially âbecause thatâs not what we doâ (which seemed to be the prevailing attitude at an earlier meeting with officials) is a poor answer and poor excuse to effectively sit back and not give possible solutions any thought.
Under The Clocks seems to have disappeared but has thankfully been archived.
It explores a few options:
Inland Rail from Calvert, using narrow gauge diesel (like the Cairns Tilt Train): speculative 80-90 minutes
Electrify to Calvert, battery beyond, with curve easing Ipswich-Darra too: save 10 min over #1
RFR to the range on possibly new alignments, share the IR range crossing: 45 minutes
If you could get a Tilt Train to do Brisbane CBD to Toowoomba central in 80 minutes youâd be almost competitive with driving off peak. Though the Toowoomba side of the transfer might need work. Weekday PM peak is plausibly 100-140 minutes.
Iâm not super sure how you get 90 minutes using Inland Rail, though. In particular thereâs ~11 km of legacy-looking track from the new tunnel into Toowoomba. There is an opportunity for a P&R station at Willowburn though. Maybe it could be curve-eased. 60 km/h average speed (generous!) would give 11 minutes.
I estimate 22 km from tunnel portal to Helidon. Hopefully that sectionâs at ~80 km/h line speed, or 17 minutes.
The Helidon to Calvert section is 47 km. The H2C EIS appendix P1 6.3.2 has a very interesting train speed diagram in Figure 11 - basically express freighters (with priority) should be able to maintain 115 km/h along most of the H2C section with the exception of the Little Liverpool tunnel (slowing to 50 km/h). The tightest curve should be 600 metres. All up, maybe 28 minutes. More with stops along the way.
Thereâs 6km into Rosewood which is pretty straight and presumably pretty flat too. Maybe 5 minutes including the stop at Rosewood?
Total time at estimated 61 minutes Toowoomba-Rosewood.
The blog cites some old timetables (not archived) for 18 minutes Rosewood - Ipswich and 29 minutes Ipswich - Corinda - Roma St.
Incorporating Toowoomba into the Translink network and integrating long-distance buses/coaches
So from the TMR rail investigation report, the travel time for the improved train will be ~ 130 minutes, or 2 hours 10 minutes (Roma St - Toowoomba). It will be standard speed rail with standard Translink fares (TMR personal correspondence).
But the current bus/coach is already ~ 20 minutes faster than this improved rail project proposal (see image).
Youâre comparing apples and oranges, though. The vast majority of subsidised coaches in NSW arenât part of the Opal network. Theyâre booked long-distance services. There some exceptions, like the 828, which replaces the closed PictonâMittagong loop line. This is much like the 539 has replaced the old Helidon rail-motor.
The 75x, which replaces the discontinued Moss Vale-Unanderra rail service, requires bookings, and fares are similar to long-distance trains in NSW.
The current QR Travel fare from Roma St to Toowoomba is $26.46 for a âBQuickâ fare. The cheapest on Murrays or Greyhound are $35, so I guess thereâs some room for TMR to subsidise them.
Iâm not really fussed either way, but no booking would be more convenient from the passenger perspective IMHO. If it does not cause too much trouble (trial it), this could also be extended to the Toowoomba route coaches.
The rule that affected the 142 was changed some time ago. A driver had to ensure no passenger stood for more that 20 kms. It no longer applies. You can also have standing passengers on a bus/coach with seatbelts as long as all the seats are taken first. I personally wouldnât want standing passengers down the range for safety reasons either.
I think Translink (at least in its current form) would be better suited to setting up a service like Toowoomba to Rosewood or create an additional service from say Gatton to Toowoomba that connected with the bus from Rosewood. Not ideal but I think more suited to Translink than long distance coaches. The demise of McCaffertyâs certainly left a hole in the market. They used to run pretty much hourly services during the day up to Toowoomba in the 1990âs and early 2000âs. IIRC I think you had to book but could pay on the bus if you had booked.
I think a better approach would be maybe a subsidised service. TMR could put a contract out. Perhaps even a joint arrangement between the existing operators. That is, of course, unless Translink take a more broad approach towards public transport in general across the state like other agencies elsewhere (e.g. PTV - Public Transport Victoria).
The existing 539 Rosewood to Gatton (with occasional extensions to Helidon) is currently operated by coaches with facilities for Wheelchair access. The current operator is Bus Queensland (Ipswich depot)
Theoretically the coaches on the 539 could be re-allocated to say a Route 538, Rosewood to Toowoomba stopping only at Plainland, (selected morning + afternoon trips diverting into UQ Gatton), Gatton Town Centre and Toowoomba for at least up to 7 services a day would initially suffice as thatâs the most direct route passing by the larger towns.
The existing Route 539 could be operated by leased TMR low floor Volgrens as the existing route are all-stoppers that would still serve the smaller towns of Grandchester, Forest Hill and Laidley which are out of the way of the Toowoomba route.
Yes, just start a bus service from Toowoomba to Gatton and then focus on the electrification, line realignment, duplication and raising above the flood plain from Rosewood to Gatton.
Would there be any value in QR acquiring hybrid DMUs to operate between Ipswich and Helidon? Electric to Rosewood, then diesel (or perhaps even battery) beyond? I believe the new NSW regional sets have a similar configuration, where they run on electricity while under the wires (i.e. south of Broadmeadow, east of Lithgow, northeast of Macarthur etc).
The current 539 averages about 46 km/h between Helidon and Rosewood. Iâm not certain, but I think I remember reading somewhere a while ago that the 2000-class railmotors averaged 60 km/h on this section, so faster than the bus.
The question would be whether QR could be convinced to run a 2-car railset without a guard. Accessibility of stations might be an issue, too.
Their could be a connecting coach service to Toowoomba from Helidon.
Itâs a big expenditure to have another whole fleet for that single use. If you could find other uses for the train, then it would become more economical.
The other issue is the alignment is extremely slow. Even with HMUs, it would still take twice as long as driving (or taking a coach) up the range.
This is the main issue, and it will remain the main issue. Doesnât matter whether weâre running steam engines or maglevs, until the alignment can be meaningly improved itâs just not suitable as a modern commuter line.
There are some sections Rosewood - Grandchester and Laidley - Helidon with speed boards of 60 or 80kph. Grandchester - Laidley is more like 30kph. The occasional BB18 1/4 trips going out to Grandchester do the run from Ipswich in acceptable time because itâs a nice, long (near) straight from Walloon. The alignment from there through Yarongmulu is the 30kph bit and you suffer a 10+ minute penalty compared to if there was a straight alignment with embankment/tunnel for a very short distance. After Laidley, a series of tactical straightenings could bring the line speed up to Helidon to a near-acceptable level. The other time sink would appear to be the time it takes from Brisbane to Ipswich within the commuter network, and my impression is there is no appetite to reduce travel times within the existing commuter network. It flows on from there.
Would an O-BHAN type BRT work between Brisbane/Toowoomba [with key stops along way], built in a manner that would allow future conversion to Heavy Rail? Obviously, this would allow regional âlocalâ bus services to link to the O-BAHN corridor and help keep initial costs lower and allow âone dayâ, for heavy rail conversion.
The existing heavy rail alignment between Rosewood and Helidon is mostly fit for purpose I think (up to 80kph standard in many areas presently and fairly straight), save for the lack of electrification meaning thereâs no rollingstock to do the work. Grandchester to Laidley is the main problem area. It wouldnât be a huge effort to bring much of Laidley - Helidon or Rosewood-Grandchester up to 100-120kph, save for curves in towns that would have stops anyway.
The small tunnel in the Little Liverpool Range is not suitable for electrification and its heritage listed, and electrification is high cost in the current infrastructure cost environment, so thereâs a lot of things playing against considering that option.
Buying new trains just to run Brisbane - Helidon (with bus change to Toowoomba) or all the way up by rail also seems high cost compared to the outcomes achieved.
Thereâs just a lot of things playing against it all; but 70-80% of the existing Rosewood - Helidon alignment is not one of them I think.
The Lockyer Valley is also very low density - Gatton is smaller than Warwick and Dalby (by a fair bit) and the bulk of population growth is in the eastern edge, around Plainland etc. (appropriate public transport for that area is also an important but probably separate question though).
For any bus that connects Toowoomba to Ipswich or Brisbane, I think the Warrego Highway is the right call because it achieves most outcomes at low cost (just âserviceâ essentially), and we can re-jig the Lockyer Valley network to have an appropriate interchange that minimises the time penalty for Toowoomba - Brisbane passengers.
Battery/electric hybrid trains have come a long way in recent years. It is well within the capability of modern technology to have a train run under the wires as far as Rosewood and then use batteries to get to Laidley and Gatton.
I absolutely agree itâs within capability, and am well aware of the similar model that operates on the Oga Line in Akita Prefecture in Japan. Convincing the government itâs a good idea is the harder part. I suspect a bus based model would be an easier sell, and would probably achieve similar (possibly better) outcomes, given the majority of trips generated would be coming from Toowoomba rather than the Lockyer Valley.
Donât get me wrong, I come from a QR family and am a strong advocate and passionate for rail; but Iâm also realistic and concerned about achieving real outcomes in a manner that is cost effective. Iâm more than happy to advocate for a rail based option if itâs the best one; but I donât want the ideal to be the enemy of the good, or even the acceptable, given subsidised public transport between Toowoomba and Brisbane is virtually a black hole at present.
